War Crimes - Captures; Posters. Karadzic or Mladic or Other?

Genocides.

Radovan Karadzic. With the capture of Radovan Karadzic, wartime leader of the Bosnian Serbs accused of massacres (masterminding), we are trying to tell from the photographs if these are Mr. Karadzic. Trials will probably take place at The Hague, The Netherlands.

His laptop has been found near Belgrade, off one of the roads (do a simple search) and there are issues of who helped him in hiding for so long, see ://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2535690/Radovan-Karadzic-was-protected-by-UK.html.

An Images search shows that the feature on these posters are not quite Karadzic.

Ratko Mladic. They do resemble another sought alleged war criminal, Ratko Mladic, but we need someone else to verify these earlier photos, earlier times.

Ratko Mladic may be negotiating his surrender, see ://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=171661.

The crimes alleged: Srebenica, where unarmed Bosnian Muslim men were lined up and shot, with only a few of 5,000 surviving, and additional horrors, read the New York Times International Report July 25, 2008 at A6. Do your own search for the acts alleged, and the witnesses, and circumstances. The most well known/ notorious of the mass murders relates to that town of Srebenica, Bosnia, in 1995. With tensions and travel warnings. and simple issues of road conditions, and on our own, we did not go. If you look at a map, Srebenica is far east, nearly on the Serbian border. We stayed closer to the Adriatic coast, and west.

Accusations also focus on killings at Sarajevo. That also is in central Bosnia, and off-limits on our insurance as we recall. Also, no Kosovo.

These posters were displayed in a small town, a side street, that we recall believe was just over the border into Bosnia from Croatia, but perhaps it was one of the last towns in Croatia as we headed for Medjugorje, Bosnia.


These posters were, we understand, in support of the men shown, not "wanted" posters.

Discussions in pubs where we tended to eat each evening (good food, less expensive) led us to believe that this sentiment was broadly approved: that many people believed "war criminals" from that time should not be prosecuted, because war is war, and they were acting in the best interests of their side at the time, doing no worse than others in their position in other wars and even these wars. Just reporting.

We repeat the letters in an effort to get an online translation:

"dom spremni i za domovinu cuvat cemo antu gotovinu"

We do not know what they mean. Just tried. We see no Bosnian or Croatian to English.

Srebenica - Travel Warnings For Us. War Crimes Reminder Now.

First, meet Frieda, from Bosnia, a cashier at our splendidly efficient, and increasingly "green", supermarket, the American Family-Owned Big Y excellent supermarket chain in the northeast, that also employs our Daniel as a bagger, Dan of our famous Car-Dan Tour Company.

She returns every few years when she can, and we keep in close touch with how her family is doing. We did not visit, because of travel warnings when we were there. Frieda is us, but by chance. FN 1

New York Times, 7/25/2008 at A6. The capture of Radovan Karadzic, war criminal, in Croatia, for massacre at Srebenica, Bosnia - the "worst massacre since World War II." The headline: "Serb Leader's Capture Brings Little Solace at Site of Killings in Bosnia." Read also the Opinion page at NYT July 27, 2008: "Genocide's Epic Hero." The subheading reads, "How One Man's Poetial Delusions Made Bosnia Suffer." Because these things have not happened to mainstream us, we may disregard it around the world. That is a deadly mistake.

Any trip to the Balkans: travel choices to be weighed with options if something goes wrong. We, as a tour group of mother and son on the loose, chose a tried-and-true-route in Bosnia, to Mostar, essentially, and Medjugorje out of curiosity for hearing of it, not commitment to its premise of miracles. There were travel warnings of car-jackings, bad roads, who would know where we were. So we stayed, responsibly we believe, in an overall safe area. We did not stay on the main roads, because those get dull, but we stayed in an overall "safe" area, near the coast.

But no matter where we went, and remember that we are eating in pubs and regular places, not restaurants, we heard talk of war crimes, accusations against alleged war criminals. We knew of Srebenica. But look at a map. It is northeast from Montenegro, as we drove down the coast, near the Serbian border.

This post is not a travel-experience post, except that we were primed for what we read now. In Croatia, where the discussion continued, the word was that war is war and people who pull the stops to get their objectives accomplished, in the context of war, are different from others in different positions. That was the view.

We draw attention to this war crime as a plea for Americans to research on their own, the impact of power amok, avoid hiding from any information on what power uncontrolled will do. And are led to do. Bosnia is not unique.

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FN 1 Issues of immigration? Good heavens. She is a poster person for opening doors. Yes, she is "legal," but more important is what we gain by expansion, not fearful shutting ourselves out. Talk to your next cashier. Ask. Find out. Who contributes. Frieda is a delight to meet on a busy day, is an asset to us and anywhere. Frieda. Thank, you Big Y, for your people.

She is not from Srebenica, but from a town more toward the north, near the Croatian border there.

Bosnia-Herzegovina: History, Divisions [here, "Bosnia"]

Mostar, Bosnia, Turkish Quarter and Bridge

This Balkan country with its long name, Bosnia-Herzegovina, has a long history of wide swings in rulers, differing ethnic origins. It has been the target for the aggressive nationalism of other countries - Serbia most recently - and religious conflict: Christian , sometimes Roman Catholic against Eastern Orthodox; sometimes Christian more broadly vs. Bosniak Muslim, also very broadly.

Note the English sign here in the Turkish Quarter of Mostar, Bosnia: "Don't forget." Serbian ethnic cleansings/ genocide are raw in memory.

If your school histody did not dwell upon Balkan events, see this site for a plausible outline: //www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_bosnia.html. Its title is "Peace Pledge Union Information - Genocide". This outline clarifies the area's regional issues, and also some similar issues involved in current news.

Kosovo and Bosnian events. Current news may well affect Bosnia, especially the new independence of its neighbor, Kosovo, a province of Serbia with a Muslim majority. See discussion at World Wars 1&2, Other Battles. An overview of the role of cultural memory in shaping current events, and its importance, is at Europe Road Ways Themes, Cultural Memory, Kosovo I, Cultural Narrative; and at Europe Road Ways Themes, Cultural Memory, Kosovo II, Battle of Kosovo, Current History. Efforts of an outsider to understand.

The Peace Pledge site is detailed, but we worked out this overall basic chronology from it. As we find other sites, we will include them. These are from Peace Pledge. Bosnia history:

• 1400's-1878 - Part of Ottoman Empire, Muslim, Turkish origin
  

• 1878-end of World War I - Part of Austro-Hungarian Empire
  

• End of World War I-1992 - Part of Yugoslavia, that nation ruled by Tito until Tito's death in 1980, and until 1980 comprised of Croatia, Serbia and its province of Kosovo, Montenegro, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Macedonia. The government was located in Belgrade, Serbia.

Here are the groups that call Bosnia their historical homeland, says the site, as of 1980 - 1.3 million Bosnian Serbs who are also Orthodox Christian, 700,000 Roman Catholic Christians, 1 million "Bosniaks" who are Sunni Muslim. The Bosniak capital is Sarajevo.

• In 1987, Serbia's nationalism reemerged with its leader, Slobodan Milosovic, and Milosovic became also effective leader of Yugoslovia at that time as well (?). He encouraged Serb nationalism in Serbia and any region where they were in substantial numbers.
  

• In 1990, elections were won by nationalists in Slovenia and Croatia, and Slovenia.
  

• 1991 - independence declared by Slovenia (peaceful); Croatia (fighting for about a year - Serbia wanted to retain Serb communities in Croatia) and Macedonia (not sure). Those countries were recognized internationally.
  

• 1993 - Serbians set up Republika Srpska (the town of Srebenica is there) in the east in Bosnia, under Radovan Karadzic. The Bosnian Serb army, under Ratko Mladic, controlled about 3/4 of the country. Bosnian Croats had been pushed out mostly. Some had remained until 1994, trying to hold on to Croatian ethnic areas in Bosnia.

Then followed unsuccessful UN mediations, setting up "safe" areas for Muslims, against Serb attacks, ethnic cleansing used as the term for killing or pushing out Muslims, instead of "genocide" that would have required other interventions, and please go now to the entire site for details. Mass killings, deportations, mass graves. Srebenica virtually emptied? Some 20,000 missing, says the site, DNA helping identify from the mass graves.

• 1995 - Peace talks at Dayton, Ohio. The Dayton Accords. Then NATO forces of differing kinds went in. Serbs populate Srebenica themselves, in homes that had been Muslim. And many were Serbs that had been pushed out of other areas by Muslims and Croats, for example, from Sarajevo, and the site says many had no other place to go - but the Serb activities in Bosnia caused huge population shifts, an "internal displacement" instability that the people have not recovered from yet.
  

• 1996 - Elections. A 3-person presidency established.

Go to the site for the account of the trial of Milosevic for war crimes, at The Hague. The UN acknowledged, says the site, its ineffective response - read the statements, etc.

Watch to see if the Kosovo independence issues ripen and affect other countries, particularly concern for the new Serbian minority in Kosovo in light of overall Serbian persecution in the recent past as to Albanian Muslims in places where Serbians were or had sought to be the majority. See issues related to the reliability and completeness of the news we get, at Hello, Fodder: News Disinformation. Dig for more than the spin you may find. Is policy being sold to you, or are you getting facts. Just check.

The Ottoman Empire and Bosnia

Mostar, Bosnia, Bridge from Turkish Quarter

Background. Think back on the shaping of Western culture, by its avoidance of Islam. And that was only a matter of chance location.

The rest of Europe let the Balkans cope with invasions by the Turks, while continuing its profitable trade routes, own territorial expansions, perhaps paying tribute only. Think of the consequence of this burden on the Balkans, based on its location, in the path of the expanding Ottoman Empire. See ://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h13zt.htm.

The centuries of fighting and then rule by Ottomans, affected a large area of the old Yugoslavia in particular. Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro (then part of Serbia), Serbia, majority Eastern Orthodox; then Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia becoming home to many Muslim settlers, ethnic Albanians, following the victories of the Ottomans. These were not forced conversions - at the time there was not religious hatreds between the groups, more cultural antipathies of victor and vanquished.

Croatia and Slovenia were not part of the Ottoman Empire, and developed in different ways - Roman Catholic, not Orthodox Christian or Muslim largely. So the antipathy there became Roman Catholic vs. Eastern Orthodox, as I understand it.

Cultural Narratives. Any culture defines itself by narrative - what do the people believe about themselves, how they evolved. What work is left undone for next generations. See Europe Road Ways Themes: Kosovo I; Europe Road Ways Themes: Kosovo II. Here, the Turkish quarter in Mostar, and the old Mostar Bridge.

The topic narrows to this: How do all of us shape our responses to other populations, through the narratives we absorb. Who promotes what narrative, and who gains. Do some researching yourself. How does Kosovo impact on Bosnia, next door.

1. Kosovo's Cultural Narrative. Battle of Kosovo, Serbia. Kosovo has been (is) a province of Serbia, and at its core. In 1389, one particular battle at Kosovo, Serb against Turk, Christian against Muslim, resulted in Muslim victory, resounding Orthodox Christian defeat.

There emerged an epic interpretation of Christian loss, that ignited a nationalistic and religious fervor against the Turk that underlies much conflict in that area today. Kosovo.* Update 2/17/08 -Kosovo declaring independence. See discussion at World Wars I and 2 and Other Battles, Kosovo. Read how events at that time are interpreted in religious terms, parallels to martyrdom, and even Christ's death, and who came later in the form of a Mary, if you want to understand. Look up the "Maid of Kosovo." Search for the Kosovo Epic Poems, that took the place of "fact" in the population's consciousness, where there were few fact documented. Ripe for legend.

2. The Muslim view. To that deeply emotional view by the Christians, and to understand the depth of the issues, read now about the Muslim perspective, and their account of how they were treated under the Christians. See ://members.tripod.com/worldupdates/islamintheworld/id23.htm. At the time, this battle was not considered pivotal - the Ottomans would have won the area anyway - this was a mere ripple.

3. The Muslim advance continued after Kosovo. By 1492, the year that the Muslims were expelled from Spain, Bosnia-Herzegovina fell to the Muslims. See "A Survey of the Indigenous Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina," by Saffet Abid, at ://members.tripod.com/worldupdates/islamintheworld/id23.htm. But that site also says that the Bogomils, see posts here about this historical Christian sect that was so persecuted by the Roman Church as heretic, gradually converted to Islam - no reference to that in earlier sites, that simply say they ceased to be.

Compare this to Western treatment of conquered people: The transition under the Muslims was peaceful in that conversions were not forced - populations were not slaughtered, see posts on "dhimmi" status at Europe Road Ways, Themes: Kosovo I and II.

5. How Later Genocides Emerge. With the Ottomans expelled by mid-19th Century, the ethnic Albanian Muslims remained. Memories of past Orthodox Christian Martyrdom persisted, followed by perceived wrongs suffered by Serbians in losing their lands; and those who are left (the ethnic Albanians) not being the "victors" but only the followers, leads to instability, views of deep unfairness. If the Ottomans are out, then the Serbians should have back their lands, went the thinking. So, genocide, ethnic cleansing, complete the process of returning Serbia's lands to Serbians.

Bosnia: Integral to the issue. Many ethnic Albanians settled there as well, as did Serbians. Bosnia itself had once been "Serbian" land - look up maps at the time just prior to WWI. Large areas look within Serbia's purview. So Serbian nationalism spread into Bosnia.

No answers here, but an interest in the merciful instead of the retaliatory, and concerned that our narratives bar looking at actuality. What enables stability among people. What does not. Who learned that first.
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*Apparently, the facts of the actual battle on the Field of Kosovo in 1389 are foggy, few contemporaneous records. But we have an epic cycle of poetry about it, the martyrdoms of the Serbian Christians under Prince Lazar, the assassination of Sultan Murad I in his tent the night before battle, by a Serb, the Maid of Kosovo tending to the wounded. That is what is "remembered" - the filled-in later interpretation, cropping, the spin, the legend, and it shapes people more than actual history.

The Bogomils: Roads run through them;

Bosnia and the Bogomils. An old group persecuted as heretic, finally destroyed. See the graveyards often bisected by the highway. Essential beliefs: nonhierarachical, nonauthoritative, eqalitarian. Hobby interest in people forgotten, new to us. See Bogomilia, A Site for the Unsung.

The demise of the Bogomils took hundreds of years of persecution by the mainstream Christian sects, Roman Catholic and three Eastern Orthodox crusades (1240 AD, 1246 AD and 1345-46 AD) out of Hungary, and the Turkish (Islamic) Ottoman Empire expansion, to succeed. See a history of warfare including the persecutions in Bosnia, at www.zum.de/whkmla/military/balkans/milxbosnia. Go to the home page first, then use the rest of the address only as needed to navigate.

The headstones show fine carvings of everyday life, and crosses. I understand there have been no significant excavations of the areas. Related to the Cathars. The strength of ideas. Overview at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils. See more background at www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/9892/bogomils; and www.serbianna.com/features/entry_of_slavs/bosnia.